B44 SBS Update – Initial Reviews Are In: Part 2 Of 3


by on Nov 26th, 2013
The B44 SBS debuts along Nostrand Avenue. Source: Patrick Cashin / MTA / Flickr

The B44 SBS debuts along Nostrand Avenue. Source: Patrick Cashin / MTA / Flickr

THE COMMUTE: Yesterday, in Part 1, we provided some media coverage from NewsChannel 12 and NY 1 showing rider frustrations with the new B44 Select Bus Service (SBS). That is not to say that everyone is unhappy about it. As I predicted, those traveling long distances who can make use of the SBS stops will save time and be pleased. You can never please everybody. The question remains: Will more riders be helped or hurt by this new service?

The goal in making any change is to help more riders than you hurt. This is definitely not the case during the first week of service. Some changes will ultimately be made to reduce rider inconvenience, but I believe that no matter what is done, SBS on the B44 will not be worth the effort, because there are too many problems to correct, and I do not believe that the MTA will correct them all.

Riders will get over the initial confusion and that will no longer be an issue. One or more Limited stops will be added depending on who screams the loudest. However, the major issue will remain for at least a while, which are overcrowding and reliability on the B44 local.

In the next year, more articulated buses will arrive and will most likely be placed on the B44 local, mitigating the overcrowding and reliability problems somewhat. But should riders have to wait that long for relief? Of course not. However, there is little incentive for the MTA to increase service on the locals despite the fact that overcrowding violates its secret planning service guidelines not available on its website.

Running extra service costs money. Operating articulated buses does not. So why not just let the riders wait until they arrive? Local riders will have no choice but to walk two long extra blocks to Rogers Avenue for the SBS. Perhaps they will have to walk even further after they get off the bus, if the choice is to perhaps wait 40 minutes for a local in the frigid cold, as we have already started to experience yesterday. That is exactly what the MTA is hoping for. Then they can claim local service is adequate and SBS buses are now full. The MTA will still insist that riders are saving time with the new SBS, when it will be obvious to all former local and Limited riders who switched that they now have a more inconvenient, longer trip involving more walking. The MTA will continue to use the amount of time the SBS and local buses save as their sole metric in measuring the improvements.

Rider And Operator Reviews

Now here are the reviews I promised you yesterday. The first is an email forwarded to me from a friend of mine from someone who rode the bus the first day and uses the handle “theonlyrealhammer”:

“An unmitigated disaster, but I am sure that the MTA will slant the stories in its favor.

“Nostrand Avenue narrowed in its southern end along a shopping district. Fortunately was traveling there early on a Sunday morning, but can imagine how bad it will be on workday. This morning observed almost a dozen empty or nearly empty select bus service buses go by before a local bus came by. The local bus became so crowded that the driver abandoned potential riders at the bus stops. As one of the writers indicated, no SBS service stops at several interconnecting east/west bus routes. Long stretches between the SBS stops. Again, as one of the writers indicated, local ridership will suffer given the poor service with the result that the MTA will reduce the poor service even further. The SBS buses were the double buses, while the local bus was a single.

“Would not be so bad if the MTA cut the number of empty SBS buses and increased the number of local buses.

“Five years of planning and road still ripped up, painting of pavement not competed, digital signs announcing bus times not ready, and signal priority not functional. No excuse.”

The second is from Paul Evans writing in to the New York Daily News, which published such a glowing news article of the B44 SBS before its introduction. The title is Not Sold on Select Bus:

“Brooklyn: Just when you thought service could not get any worse on the B44 bus, the MTA reaches a new low with Select Bus Service. The old, canceled limited bus service needs to be returned to this route because the SBS buses on Nostrand and Bedford Aves. are a disservice. They do not stop at the former limited stops so that the people who wait there actually get less bus service than before via packed local buses. Meanwhile, the SBS buses are mostly empty, with just a handful of passengers on those extra long vehicles; and they still run in bunches! We were sold the idea of SBS buses as a way to prevent people from sneaking on to buses through the back door. I wasn’t persuaded. There was no enforcement on any buses previously. I believe the MTA will cook the data by putting undercover officers on the SBS buses to show how effective they are against fare beaters. Still, I waited for a crowded local bus for 20 minutes the other day.”

This is from Eric B on NYC Transit Forums:

“I tried it today (WB-Jct and back). Still slowed down by all the people trying to pay the driver, or give him the receipt. They need better signs at the stops. A lot of school buses and other commercial vehicles using the lanes and some others otherwise ‘standing.’ The beginning stretch was slowed by the unpaved street. I wonder why they wouldn’t get that finished before starting it. People on Rogers seemed to be confused and not like it, saying it made their trip more difficult.”

Finally, here is an excerpt from a bus driver who calls himself Acela Express on NYC Transit Forums:

“SBS44 started on 11/17/13. First two days were pure hell, especially after the SBS ambassadors left at 7pm on the first two days, when they should have stayed til the last SBS bus left from the bridge.

“It was confusion and frustration for the passengers. However things seem to smooth out a whole lot for SBS on Thursday & Friday (as I’m off Tuesday & Wednesday) — many folks knew to get their tickets before boarding, while are some are still unaware of the new service. Usually at Fulton Street, southbound, it takes 5 minutes to load an entire bus, the traditional way; but with SBS, I was in and out in 30 seconds with a fully loaded artic. Very smooth. They even added strip maps along the bus for passengers to know their way.

“For the local buses, it was just a nightmare all week, as they are mostly on 10-12 minute headways, and with the eliminated LTD service along NY Avenue, they will need to add more local buses to compensate until everyone starts learning express is running down Rogers Avenue. And I did pick up quite a bit along Rogers yesterday compared to the rest of the week — everyone is starting to catch on…Folks have even commended the new service along Rogers as being MUCH faster. All in all, the only improvement needed is local service to handle the load balancing. That’s it, so far.”

In the concluding part tomorrow: a few more reviews, links to more media coverage, as well as some conclusions.

The Commute is a weekly feature highlighting news and information about the city’s mass transit system and transportation infrastructure. It is written by Allan Rosen, a Manhattan Beach resident and former Director of MTA/NYC Transit Bus Planning (1981).

Disclaimer: The above is an opinion column and may not represent the thoughts or position of Sheepshead Bites. Based upon their expertise in their respective fields, our columnists are responsible for fact-checking their own work, and their submissions are edited only for length, grammar and clarity. If you would like to submit an opinion piece or become a regularly featured contributor, please e-mail nberke [at] sheepsheadbites [dot] com.

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  • MH

    Well I took a bus from Clarkson and Nostrand to Newkirk the other day, it took literally 5 minutes. Bus was empty and it caught up with another bus in front of it. People were confused though as about where to go to the limited bus and I was telling people to walk to Rogers if you wanted to go to bed-stuy or take the local on NY. The local is a clutter with passengers like crazy, they need the longer buses. I read your article about the SBS from a while ago stating that they were using the longer length buses along with regular length buses, but I only see the longer buses. Also, I think you are right there will be no more service on NY after a while. NY is going to be like their Bed-Stuy counterpart Marcy, no bus service and you have to walk 2 blocks for the closest northbound bus.

    • Allan Rosen

      Yes, of course if you hit it right with an empty bus because there is one right in front where there shouldn’t be one, your trip will be super fast. (I once made in on the B1 without any other passengers all the way from McDonald Avenue to Ocean Avenue in only 7 minutes, no longer than it would have taken in a car.) But the buses need to be evenly spaced out.

      I’m sure te MTA would have put the longer buses on the local if they had any. They don’t. They are waiting for them to be delivered. After five years of planning, you would think they woud have ordered them earlier. Perhaps, the three door variety was not available back then. I do not know.

      • MH

        Yeah, I know that, but before the SBS, I saw those buses on both limited and local buses. So all of sudden they run out. By the way why no local daytime buses pass Flushing Ave? So the people in Williamsburg got to walk to closest SBS stop? And are those stops past Flushing canned or they only stop there on the late nights?

        • Allan Rosen

          I can’t say for sure but I really doubt they woud keep stops for late night only. I also bet this was never told to the communities beforehand. If they didn’t een verbally mention they were removing a lane from general traffic, why would they tell youths were eliminating local stops? They only told you what try wanted to tell you, i, e. the good points of SBS, but none of the bad ones. You had to find the out yourself.

          As far as before SBS, the longer buses were split on the Limited and the local. Once they put all of them on the SBS, none were left for the local. They have no reason to lie about that.

          • Andrew

            I can’t say for sure but I really doubt they woud keep stops for late night only. I also bet this was never told to the communities beforehand. If they didn’t een verbally mention they were removing a lane from general traffic, why would they tell youths were eliminating local stops? They only told you what try wanted to tell you, i, e. the good points of SBS, but none of the bad ones. You had to find the out yourself.

            http://www.nyc.gov/html/brt/downloads/pdf/201109_brt_nostrand_cac4.pdf (from September 20, 2011) – page 16: “B44 local buses will terminate at Flushing Avenue, as they do now”

          • Allan Rosen

            You are missing the point. Although the local always terminated at Flushing Ave, the Limited which used make all stops north of Flushing was discontinued and I believe half the stops were eliminated to accommodate SBS which stops further apart than where the Limited used to stop. So now everyone has to walk a quarter mile or more to the SBS rather than the the two or three blocks they previously had to walk with no alternative.

          • Andrew

            I’m not missing any point. The presentation (given to the Community Advisory Committee over two years ago) clearly shows the 2-3 removed local stops in each direction and clearly states that the locals would continue to terminate at Flushing. Your claim that “this was never told to the communities beforehand” is simply false.

          • Allan Rosen

            You certainly are. The SBS map in the report and presented to communities only shows SBS stops and not local stops. Were you at a Williamsburg meeting and did you hear someone actually state that local stops north of Flushing Avenue would be removed? Can you answer yes to that question?

            If at the Sheepshead Bay or Brooklyn College meetings that I attended, they failed to even mention in their presentation or in written documents that the bus lane would remove a general lane from traffic, I can be fairly certain that the removal of bus stops affecting far fewer people was not mentioned either. You had to closely inspect the maps and know the existing conditions to realize that a traffic lane was being removed. Something that important needed to be stated verbally. In the case of the local schedule showing trips only to Flushing Avenue, it was not released until two days before SBS implementation, so no one could check for themselves.

            The statement that locals would continue to terminate at Flushing Avenue is incorrect because some locals previously terminated at Williamsburg Plaza during evening hours when the Limited was operating and those trips have been discontinued with the institution of SBS.

            Also, before SBS, during times the locals terminated at Flushing Avenue, the Limiteds made all stops north of Flushing Avenue so no one had to walk further. Now everyone has to walk further. Those living near the new housing along Kent Avenue will now have nearly a half mile walk to the B44 when they previously were within a quarter mile of that route. More passengers boardinf north of Flushing Avenue will also have to change for the local (as well as perhaps have to pay an additional fare if they require a third local bus) since many Limited stops have been removed.

            How will you consider those people and all the others negatively affected when you determine that SBS has been a huge success? Oh wait, you have already determined that.

            On the other hand I am not predicting success or failure because we will never have that answer because the necessary statistics to determine success or failure will never be collected. Success will be determined by counting the numbers of people who will benefit and will number in the thousands while ignoring all who were inconvenienced and negatively impacted so we will never no if more will benefit or more were inconvenienced as a result of the B44 SBS. Thousands will benefit and thousands will be inconvenienced.

          • Andrew

            You certainly are. The SBS map in the report and presented to communities only shows SBS stops and not local stops. Were you at a Williamsburg meeting and did you hear someone actually state that local stops north of Flushing Avenue would be removed? Can you answer yes to that question?

            Did you bother to look at page 16 of the September 20, 2011 presentation, which I linked to Tuesday night? See the red circles on the map? What do you think they mean? (Hint: the answer is in the legend – “Removed Local Stop”)

            Just because nobody told you personally doesn’t mean it was a secret.

            If at the Sheepshead Bay or Brooklyn College meetings that I attended, they failed to even mention in their presentation or in written documents that the bus lane would remove a general lane from traffic, I can be fairly certain that the removal of bus stops affecting far fewer people was not mentioned either. You had to closely inspect the maps and know the existing conditions to realize that a traffic lane was being removed. Something that important needed to be stated verbally. In the case of the local schedule showing trips only to Flushing Avenue, it was not released until two days before SBS implementation, so no one could check for themselves.

            The local bus stop eliminations north of Flushing, as I just said, were presented on September 20, 2011. If you weren’t at that meeting, the slides were placed on the DOT website for all to peruse.

            The lane layout changes were detailed in a presentation on October 27, 2010, starting on page 19. They clearly show both the existing and the proposed layouts. If you weren’t at that meeting, the slides were placed on the DOT website for all to peruse.

            The statement that locals would continue to terminate at Flushing Avenue is incorrect because some locals previously terminated at Williamsburg Plaza during evening hours when the Limited was operating and those trips have been discontinued with the institution of SBS.

            You are picking nits. The local ran to the Plaza essentially only when the limited wasn’t running; if there was an overlap, it was fairly brief. The same applies now with the SBS.

            Also, before SBS, during times the locals terminated at Flushing Avenue, the Limiteds made all stops north of Flushing Avenue so no one had to walk further. Now everyone has to walk further.

            Everyone has to walk further? No, only the people who used to use the local stops that were eliminated have to walk further. We’ve already established that those stops were lightly used.

            Those living near the new housing along Kent Avenue will now have nearly a half mile walk to the B44 when they previously were within a quarter mile of that route.

            Which new housing are you referring to? If you mean the new buildings by South 9th, their closest B44 stops are at Taylor, still served by the SBS. (But I doubt the B44 attracts many riders from those buildings anyway.)

            More passengers boardinf north of Flushing Avenue will also have to change for the local (as well as perhaps have to pay an additional fare if they require a third local bus) since many Limited stops have been removed.

            Some passengers, sure. But relatively few.

            How will you consider those people and all the others negatively affected when you determine that SBS has been a huge success? Oh wait, you have already determined that.

            I haven’t determined anything. Yet you’ve already determined that SBS has been a massive failure, even though we’re only two weeks in.

            On the other hand I am not predicting success or failure because we will never have that answer because the necessary statistics to determine success or failure will never be collected. Success will be determined by counting the numbers of people who will benefit and will number in the thousands while ignoring all who were inconvenienced and negatively impacted so we will never no if more will benefit or more were inconvenienced as a result of the B44 SBS. Thousands will benefit and thousands will be inconvenienced.

            You’ve been predicting doom and gloom for years!

            As you well know (because I’ve pointed it out many times), the M15 evaluation report actually includes a lot of information on a lot of subjects. Personally, I think the total corridor ridership change is the single most interesting data point, since it summarizes in a nutshell how much more or less useful people are finding the M15 as a whole. But for anybody interested in separate SBS and local ridership or in bus travel times or in rider satisfaction or in traffic impacts or in safety impacts or in fare machine availability, it’s in there.

          • Allan Rosen

            “Did you bother to look at page 16 of the September 20, 2011 presentation, which I linked to Tuesday night? See the red circles on the map? What do you think they mean? (Hint: the answer is in the legend – “Removed Local Stop”)”

            An important point like that needs to be made verbally? Were you at the meeting? Did you hear anyone mention that specific point? Or did someone have to sift through sheets of paper on the tables to figure that out? Many people are too lazy, don’t have the time to do that, or do not understand maps and not everyone especially senior citizens to whom this would be most important are not computer literate, so please don’t say the information was available to all. They trust that all important points will be made during the presentation.

            “The local ran to the Plaza essentially only when the limited wasn’t running; if there was an overlap, it was fairly brief.”

            The overlap was from 8:30 to 10:30, not that brief.

            “We’ve already established that those stops were lightly used.”

            No you determined those stops were lightly used.

            “Which new housing are you referring to?”

            Actually, I was referring to the 647 Mitchell Llama units between Wythe and Bedford between Ross and the BQE.

            “Some passengers, sure. But relatively few.”

            What do you consider “relatively few”? Do you use MTA thinking where any number less than 1,000 is few?

            The fact remains that no one, and that means 1 person or more should have to pay an additional fare because of a service change.

            “I haven’t determined anything. Yet you’ve already determined that SBS has been a massive failure, even though we’re only two weeks in.”

            Oh really? Everything you have posted points to what a success the B44 SBS is. And show where I have determined that SBS has been a massive failure. I never said anything of the sort. I specifically stated that some people will love it. I also clearly stated in three articles that these are “initial reviews.” I guess you still haven’t looked up the word “initial” in the dictionary.

            I have merely been pointing out some very real problems that many others besides myself have seen, that you just dismiss away. I even gave clear recommendations how to improve the SBS and make it a success. So your statement that I have determined SBS to be a massive failure is just untrue.

            “You’ve been predicting doom and gloom for years!”

            Another lie. I have been telling it like it is while you have been making excuses for the MTA!

          • Andrew

            An important point like that needs to be made verbally? Were you at the meeting? Did you hear anyone mention that specific point? Or did someone have to sift through sheets of paper on the tables to figure that out? Many people are too lazy, don’t have the time to do that, or do not understand maps and not everyone especially senior citizens to whom this would be most important are not computer literate, so please don’t say the information was available to all. They trust that all important points will be made during the presentation.

            I was not at the meeting, and neither were you, but I’ve been to enough PowerPoint presentations to know that the slides typically guide the presentation itself, so I would say that it’s quite likely that the person making the presentation verbally stated the information you see on the slide. If you have proof to the contrary, please go ahead and present it.

            In either case, though, your claim that “this was never told to the communities beforehand” is clearly false. Nobody was keeping this a secret.

            The overlap was from 8:30 to 10:30, not that brief.

            I’m sorry? Here is the September 2012 schedule for the B44. In the evening on weekdays, the first northbound local arrived at the Plaza 15 minutes before the last limited, and the first southbound local departed 2 minutes before the last limited. The longest overlap in the schedule is on Saturday morning, northbound from 6:41 (first limited) to 7:09 (last local) – 28 minutes. Where on earth do you see a two-hour overlap?

            No you determined those stops were lightly used.

            Actually, it was NYCT who determined that they were lightly used, but based on my observations while riding the line I have trouble disagreeing.

            Actually, I was referring to the 647 Mitchell Llama units between Wythe and Bedford between Ross and the BQE.

            Ah, so by “the new housing along Kent Avenue” you were referring to housing between Wythe and Bedford. Gotcha.

            Google Maps pegs it as a 0.3 mile, or 6 minute, walk from the Ross Street side to the Lee/Taylor bus stop or from the BQE side to the Lee/Hewes bus stop.

            What do you consider “relatively few”? Do you use MTA thinking where any number less than 1,000 is few?

            “Relatively few” as in “you’ve been missing the forest for the trees.”

            The fact remains that no one, and that means 1 person or more should have to pay an additional fare because of a service change.

            That’s a policy decision, and I don’t believe it’s yours to make.

            Oh really? Everything you have posted points to what a success the B44 SBS is. And show where I have determined that SBS has been a massive failure. I never said anything of the sort. I specifically stated that some people will love it. I also clearly stated in three articles that these are “initial reviews.” I guess you still haven’t looked up the word “initial” in the dictionary.

            I have little doubt that SBS will prove to be successful overall, but I’ve stated quite clearly that adjustments will probably be necessary as trends emerge.

            You decided three years ago that “Select Bus Service On Nostrand Is A Sham” and that “SBS along Nostrand Avenue needs to be scrapped” and that “it is just a poor idea and will not work.”

            I have merely been pointing out some very real problems that many others besides myself have seen, that you just dismiss away. I even gave clear recommendations how to improve the SBS and make it a success. So your statement that I have determined SBS to be a massive failure is just untrue.

            Except for the minor detail that you declared SBS to be a “Sham” three years ago.

            “You’ve been predicting doom and gloom for years!”

            Another lie. I have been telling it like it is while you have been making excuses for the MTA!

            “Select Bus Service On Nostrand Is A Sham” isn’t doom and gloom?

          • Allan Rosen

            “They trust that all important points will be made during the presentation.”

            I’ve been to enough Powerpoint presentations to know that some slides are skipped and others are referred to more than once. Just because a slide appears in a presentation, does not necessarily mean it is discussed.

            At the CB 15 presentation, it was never mentioned that a general traffic lane would be removed during peak hours requiring through drivers to wait for opposing traffic to clear so the car ahead can make a left turn probably resulting in missing one or more signals and being delayed because you wouldn’t be allowed to enter the bus lane to go around those cars. I would consider that an important point. Wouldn’t you? However, all that was presented was that a bus lane would be added where right turns will be permitted.

            I was wrong about the overlap. I didn’t look at the schedule closely enough. Do you ever admit a mistake or are you always correct? I am still waiting.

            “Google Maps pegs it as a 0.3 mile, or 6 minute, walk from the Ross Street side to the Lee/Taylor bus stop or from the BQE side to the Lee/Hewes bus stop.”

            The planning service guidelines call for a walk to the closest bus route to be no greater than a quarter mile. Last I checked .3 miles is greater than .25 miles and that only measures the distance from Lee/Taylor to Bedford/Ross. Everyone from that development has to walk greater than .3 miles with those from the end at Keap and Wythe having to walk a half mile. It is implicit that “bus route” means “bus stop” since when bus stops are placed as far as a mile apart, the term bus route is meaningless if the bus does not stop.

            I called the B44 SBS a sham and a poor idea because at that time the MTA was claiming a 15 minute travel time savings implying bus riders would save 15 minutes.

            It turned out that 15 minutes was the time the bus would save end to end while the average passenger would only be saving 6 minutes. It also turned out that no buses would actually even be making that trip from Williamsburg Bridge to Knapp Street.

            I stated it made more sense to choose a route where the average travel distance is greater than the average local bus trip of 2.3 miles. Like choosing an east west route where there is no parallel subway route to make long trips and the average trip length would be closer to 5 miles.

            That is not to say that the route cannot be successful with adequate modifications like adding needed SBS stops and extending the route to Kingsborough to increase the average trip length. That certainly is not doom and gloom.

            I made up my mind three years ago that the route as proposed will not work and still stand by that, but as I also stated we will never know if it is working or not because adequate statistics are not being collected. That is quite different than saying the route could not work with needed modifications.

          • MH

            I wonder if they kept SBS on NY Ave (meaning converting it into a one-way street for the streets length) would there be mass confusion or would it be a little confusion (e.g. boarding and purchasing a ticket)

        • Andrew

          http://www.nyc.gov/html/brt/downloads/pdf/201109_brt_nostrand_cac4.pdf – see page 10 for a discussion of the stops north of Flushing.

          • Allan Rosen

            Exactly what I just stated above.

      • Andrew

        I took a number of rides on Sunday. All were quick, save for the approach to the Junction. Some were quite crowded, but they loaded up quickly at the busy stops.

        I could be mistaken, but I don’t think the ultimate plan was ever to run artics on the B44 local.

        • Allan Rosen

          It would make no sense to reduce half the service and therefore half the capacity on NY Avenue by not running artics there and at the same time run more SBS trips than local trips. If no artics were planned for the local, there shoud have been two locals to every articulated SBS bus.

          Otherwise it is plainly obvious that you would be inconveniencing many riders by forcing them onto the SBS when that is not what they prefer.

          There is no other route where artics are on the SBS and standard buses on the locals. Why shoud the B44 be different unless the buses are not available yet?

          • Andrew

            The world doesn’t revolve around New York Avenue. Not everybody boarding on New York Avenue is starting from New York Avenue. Many are starting from Nostrand and points west. Give people a chance to figure out the new route and then evaluate the loading.

            The local and the SBS only need the same capacity if they carry similar loads. If the SBS, over time, carries the majority of the ridership (as is the case on the Bx12 and the M15), then the SBS should have the majority of the capacity as well.

            Presumably the projections indicated that, in the long term, loads on the B44 local wouldn’t be high enough to warrant articulated buses. Remember that, for a given ridership per hour, articulated buses yield reduced frequencies, since the same capacity can be achieved with fewer buses. Service on the local will be more frequent if the standard buses are kept.

          • Allan Rosen

            No one is starting from points west of Nostrand Avenue. They are all taking the B49. The MTA stated at the CB 15 meeting that artics woud not be used on the local because it couldn’t make the turn at Farragut Road, not because of insufficient demand. That turned out to be a lie, because artics were used on New York Avenue prior to SBS.

          • Andrew

            “No one”? “all”? Plenty of people prefer to walk a few blocks to catch a direct bus in order to transfer, and the B49 only runs as far as Fulton. In fact, before SBS, the northbound B49 had a transfer at Fulton/Bedford to the B44 local but not to the B44 Limited – the limited stop was two blocks east at Nostrand. Anybody needing the limited (including anybody going north of Flushing when the locals terminated at Flushing) who was unable or unwilling to make that walk had to make two transfers (B49 to B44 local to B44 Limited) and pay two fares. (See, I can play that game too!) Now, they can catch the B44 SBS directly at Church, Clarkson, Empire, and St. Johns, or from any other B49 stop they can make a single transfer directly to the B44 SBS.

            And how could you claim that no one, prior to SBS, would have walked from Rogers to New York to catch the B44 (limited or local) directly, while at the same time insisting that. with SBS, people on New York are going to feel compelled to walk to Rogers because of the infrequent service on New York? The B44 local and the B49 run on similar headways for most of the day, so the combined frequency on Rogers today is similar to the former combined frequency on New York, and the frequency on New York today is similar to the former frequency on Rogers (except that there is now direct service past Fulton on both, while there used to be direct service past Fulton only on New York).

            I find it quite hard to believe that the MTA said that artics couldn’t make a particular turn, since artics have a smaller turning radius than standard buses. I suspect that somebody misunderstood either the question or the answer.

          • Allan Rosen

            You say the B49 and B44 local run on similar headways. You assume that the buses keep to their schedule. Before SBS, B44 local riders were not complaining of 30 to 40 minute waits. So it is logical to state that B44 local riders will be forced to walk to Rogers Ave to board the SBS, and at the same time state that Rogers Avenue riders were not walking to New York Avenue when delays were not prevalent on the B44 local and they could just board the B49 instead and transfer to the B44 at Fulton Street if they had to.

            And as for the statement on artics not being able to make a particular turn, you can check the video which was posted here when the MTA and DOT made their presentation. To CB 15. You also will not hear any statement about roadway capacity being reduced, and their refusal to answer questions regarding number of parking spaces lost, something tey should we been able to answer after two years of study.

          • Andrew

            A complaint to a reporter about a delay in service in the immediate aftermath of a service change is not evidence of an ongoing reliability problem nor is it evidence that there hadn’t been a reliability problem previously. You want to claim that SBS resulted in a reliability drop on the local? Then prove it.

            Not everyone has the same riding preferences that you do. As I said on Friday, “Plenty of people prefer to walk a few blocks to catch a direct bus in order to transfer.” As I said on Friday, “the northbound B49 had a transfer at Fulton/Bedford to the B44 local but not to the B44 Limited.” As I said on Friday, “Anybody needing the limited (including anybody going north of Flushing when the locals terminated at Flushing) who was unable or unwilling to make that walk had to make two transfers (B49 to B44 local to B44 Limited) and pay two fares.”

            There have been many meetings and presentations. Not every fact is presented at every single meeting – I don’t think most of the people attending are interested in sitting through a six-hour presentation, especially since many have been to other meetings and already know many of the facts. Sorry if the facts you were interested in were not presented at the meeting you attended.

            I’ve watched the video and I don’t recall hearing anything about artics unable to make some turns. Where in the video was that stated?

  • Allan Rosen

    Hey Andrew if you think everyone is so happy about SBS read this complaint.

    http://www.subchat.com/buschat/read.asp?Id=287570

    If you are so smart, tell me how you would fix it, or will you just dismiss it as the MTA probably will do by saying that you just can’t please everyone. And if you read further, the riders standing in the rain waiting for the local while the SBS passed with zero passengers aboard did not walk the block from Avenue Y to Avenue X because they were going to Avenue R.

    • sonicboy678

      Ah, a major stop with as much SBS as the number of passengers on those two buses passing Avenue Y.

    • Andrew

      Pardon? I never said that “everyone is so happy about SBS.” And why are you asking me to plan by anecdote? I don’t do that.

      If, once people have settled into their new travel patterns, SBS buses are regularly empty at Avenue Y, then obviously a service adjustment is appropriate. But this post is about a single incident at one particular time on the 11th day of service.

      • Allan Rosen

        You don’t plan by anecdote? I pointed out in several places that you do.

        And you never said everyone is happy about SBS?

        Take another look at the M15 FIrst Year Progress Report which you continually reference and fully support. I didn’t hear any objection from you regarding the MTA’s statement that 99.5% of M15 riders are satisfied with SBS. That means you agree that everyone is at least happy with the M15 SBS.

        Buses will continue to be regularly empty at Avenue Y which I also predicted last March, unless the route is extended to Kingsborough College, Sheepshead Bay Station, or both.

        I am still waiting for an answer how you would fix the problem of passengers going from Avenue Y to Avenue R waiting a long time in the rain for a local while empty SBS buses pass them by. Do you dare suggest they should just walk to Avenue X, board an SBS to either Avenue U or Kings Highway and then walk back to Avenue R? I wouldn’t put tat past you.

        • Andrew

          You don’t plan by anecdote? I pointed out in several places that you do.

          I recognize anecdotes to be anecdotes and don’t make sweeping claims based on a single bad experience.

          And you never said everyone is happy about SBS?

          Take another look at the M15 FIrst Year Progress Report which you continually reference and fully support. I didn’t hear any objection from you regarding the MTA’s statement that 99.5% of M15 riders are satisfied with SBS. That means you agree that everyone is at least happy with the M15 SBS.

          Pardon? First off, 99% (not 99.5%) is not “everyone.” Second, the number was lower among local riders. Third, that’s specifically on the M15.

          Buses will continue to be regularly empty at Avenue Y which I also predicted last March, unless the route is extended to Kingsborough College, Sheepshead Bay Station, or both.

          Again, how about waiting to see what happens once the ridership stabilizes? And how about working with data rather than with isolated anecdotes?

          I am still waiting for an answer how you would fix the problem of passengers going from Avenue Y to Avenue R waiting a long time in the rain for a local while empty SBS buses pass them by. Do you dare suggest they should just walk to Avenue X, board an SBS to either Avenue U or Kings Highway and then walk back to Avenue R? I wouldn’t put tat past you.

          Still waiting for an answer? I don’t recall having been asked before.

          I’m not sure how it’s a difficult question. Both ends of the trip are at local stops, so I’d suggest taking the local. (Have I somehow given the impression that nobody should ever ride the local? Of course that’s nonsense.)

          • Allan Rosen

            “Pardon? First off, 99% (not 99.5%) is not “everyone.”

            Oh, excuse me! You don’t believe “everyone is happy with the M15″ as I stated. You believe that only 99% are happy. How could I have made such a mistake? Talk about splitting hairs!

            “Again, how about waiting to see what happens once the ridership stabilizes? And how about working with data rather than with isolated anecdotes?”

            Oh yes of course. How dumb of me? I should have realized that once the ridership stabilizes SBS ridership at Ave Y would increase from zero or 6 per bus to 40 or 60 per bus.

            “I’m not sure how it’s a difficult question. Both ends of the trip are at local stops, so I’d suggest taking the local. (Have I somehow given the impression that nobody should ever ride the local?”

            Yes, take the local that doesn’t come when before they had a much quicker trip with the Limited. But you don’t care about those whose trip was worsened because you have already concluded that it is “relatively few.”

          • Andrew

            Oh, excuse me! You don’t believe “everyone is happy with the M15″ as I stated. You believe that only 99% are happy. How could I have made such a mistake? Talk about splitting hairs!

            If the M15 SBS has 35,000 daily riders, and 99% are satisfied, that implies that 1%, or 350 daily riders, are dissatisfied. That’s a very small number in relative terms, but a 99% satisfaction rate is still not the same as a 100% satisfaction rate.

            I am stating that the number of dissatisfied SBS users is low in relative terms, but that doesn’t mean that you won’t find SBS users who dislike it.

            Oh yes of course. How dumb of me? I should have realized that once the ridership stabilizes SBS ridership at Ave Y would increase from zero or 6 per bus to 40 or 60 per bus.

            Why would you expect heavy loads at the very end of a bus line? Most bus lines are lightly loaded at either end, except perhaps where the end of the line has a busy transfer point or a major traffic generator – the south end of the B44 has neither.

            Yes, take the local that doesn’t come when before they had a much quicker trip with the Limited. But you don’t care about those whose trip was worsened because you have already concluded that it is “relatively few.”

            The B44 local is scheduled on a 12-minute headway or better for about 18 hours a day on weekdays or a bit less on weekends. To claim that the local “doesn’t come” is absurd. No, it’s not perfectly reliable, but neither is any other route, and if you are going to claim that the B44 local has suffered a long-term decline in reliability under SBS, the burden of proof is on you.

          • Allan Rosen

            You are still splitting hairs anyway you look at it regarding M15 riders being satisfied.

            I wouldn’t usually expect heavy loads at the end of a route. That’s why I would not increase service from every 5 minutes to every 3.3 minutes as the MTA did when they are crying financial hardship.

            I have heard at least a dozen complaints about the deterioration of local service due to severe overcrowding. I would expect those delays to decrease over time as riders are forced to walk longer to the SBS. Even if I did do a survey, you would still find fauteuils claiming it was only one location, so generalizations could not be made fr the entire route. Then you woud ask for comparable “before” data to prove the problem is not new. There would be no way to prove to you service has deteriorated.

          • Allan Rosen

            “fauteuils” should read “fault”.

            (iPad doesn’t allow me to make too many corrections if I write too many paragraphs.)

  • guest

    B44 SBS is bad. They should have built the subway line like they were going to. You extend the 2/5 down nostrand. Stops at Ave J, Ave M, Kings Hwy, Ave R, Ave U, Ave X, Ave Z/Voorhies Ave. You keep the B44 local with limited. That’s how it should be in 2013. It is insane that this city has a subway system that has not seen any improvements in nearly 80 years! This eliminates crowding on buses, crowding on trains, crowding on the streets.

    • sonicboy678

      Oh boy, where to begin with this.

      • Allan Rosen

        That’s why I didn’t say anything.