I was sitting on the Sheepshead Bay train station platform late last week, when I overheard a conversation between a young Russian-American girl and a non-Russian friend she was showing around. The girl, black-haired and loud-talking, was telling the visitor that Sheepshead Bay was where all the “cool Americanized Russians live,” as opposed to Brighton Beach, which is “packed with babushkas.” A raised eyebrow from the man was all the girl needed to spur her to explain: “You know, babushkas, the old, miserable Russian women who sit in the sun complaining about the heat.” Here, I smirked.
I’m not Russian, so I was curious to hear from our Russian readers: is Sheepshead Bay known in the Russian community as where the cool Russians are? How has this shaped our neighborhood? What makes it cooler to Russians?
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That appears to be the general consensus in my research, but I’m sure the folks over at the Oceana Condominium and Club would beg to differ.
http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2009/04/sheepshead-bay-falls-off-brownstoner-top/
brooklyn has a lot of russian immigrants from odessa, which is a city located right on the black sea… brighton beach is the closest place that reminds those people of home,… so being in sheepshead bay is as close as you can get to the beach without the rude people, loud train, dirty streets, and of course babushkas of brighton beach.
[...] dangerous driving [NY Post] Stores are getting more shoppers than buyers [via Recessionwire] Sheepshead Bay cooler than Brighton Beach? [via Curbed] Extended organic happy hour and ’slow food,’ tonight at Superfine [via [...]
The “cool” Russians of Sheepshead Bay are the “cool” ones who can not afford to live in Mill Basin, Manhattan Beach or the expensive areas of Jersey/Staten Island.
The reason why Russians like Sheepshead Bay is because it is more affordable than Brighton and other surrounding areas.
Alex: Well, isn’t that the reason the “cool” white kids move to neighborhoods like Williamsburg and Greenpoint? Because the Lower East Side and the Village are too expensive?
Also, I’m not so sure Sheepshead is more affordable than Brighton. I haven’t exactly done a study, but it appears our real estate is more expensive (excepting certain developments like Oceana), and our restaurants and businesses, I think, have slightly higher prices. Either way, though, I think the cost differences are largely negligible.
Cool or not – this girl emphasized that Sheepshead was for Americanized Russians… which indicates it may be about something more than price. I also had a sense – but I could be wrong – that she was suggesting younger Russians. Mill Basin, Manhattan Beach, and Jersey aren’t exactly places for the young and hip. More for the older, established and successful.
So… is Sheepshead Bay the Williamsburg of the young, hip, Americanized Russian?
Ned I definitely disagree with the assessment that “Sheepshead Bay the Williamsburg of the young, hip, Americanized Russian.”
As far as real estate prices, the “russian” parts of Brighton are least 20% more expensive than the “russian places” of Sheepshead Bay.
When I refer to the russian parts of Brighton I am not necessarily referring only to Oceana. I am including the Co Ops right along the Boardwalk and the Condo building on Ocean Pkway that is right next to the Boardwalk, the buildings next to Asser Levy park, etc.
I can tell you that the so called “cool russian kids” tend to want to be in Jersey/Staten Island until they realize it’s not as fun as they thought to live away from the parents.
Alex all those co-ops and buildings have always been filled with old people. My family has lived in Brighton beach, sheepshead bay, and kingshighway for near 30 years now and those buildings have always been crawling with older immigrants. The young families and growing generation do intend to move away!
Many are coming back to live in the condos that have been built if they can afford it.
Arthur,
As far as rental buildings, the answer is yes they are filled with older russians. I was referring to Co ops and the condos on West 5th Str (Mitchell-Lama conversions).
Don’t get me started. Cool my ARSS.
Wait, I thought all cool Russians lived in Manhattan. Or is it not cool anymore?
Also, what do you call a Russian? Is somebody from Odessa a Russian? (Hint: technically not).
first i would like to say is that this topic is getting around far beyond this area. i got an email about this story from a friend who is russian but born here like myself who never goes to brooklyn maybe 1-2 times a year so this is getting around and fast.
i have been living on the boarder of brighton and manhattan beach near corbin place for 25 years, the only reason im here is because of family. younger russians dont want to be here and when i say here it includes brighton, sheepshead and manhattan beach. i dont think there are a lot of young russians that want to live in sheepshead if they do they are newer immigrants that have been here for 10 maybe 15 years. the original wave that came in the late 70s from odessa are now older folk and most of their kids have moved and dont want to live here. the girl on the train was probably young and was trying to show off to her non russian friend. the cool kids dont hang here either they go to the city. this is not even close to comparison of hipsters moving to the burg or slope because of being priced out of the city. as far as prices go and we are only going to compare apartments no houses really in brighton just tear downs for developments. brighton is more expensive better access to transportation, shopping and beach access. all you have to do is look at retail rents brighton beach ave is anywhere from 60-125/sf theres not one location in sheepshead bay that compare to those retail rents. if there is its just a couple of stores. so the answer to your question is no sheepshead bay is not for americanized or younger russians its for people you want to live there, have to live there or cant afford to move somewhere else.
Cool is all relative. Even the smallest backwater in the middle of nowhere may have a “scene”. It may not impress sophisticated New Yorkers, but it works for them. The clubs along Neck Road think they’re hip. In fact I am sure that they’re owners will tell you that people come there from all over. These clubs have a mostly Russian clientèle.
The consensus I’m reading here that Brighton is MORE expensive is probably true. That is, if we are talking about the Russian part of Brighton. There is still a Hispanic community, and some homeowners whose families have lived in Brighton for three generations. These communities are no longer recognized as Brighton Beach. But they are not as well to do as the co-op/condo owners of Brighton Beach Avenue. The bungalow colonies take up quite an expanse of space in Brighton. But the combined population of these houses could fit on the lower ten floors of of the towers facing the ocean.
Broker, are you in real estate? Does your friend go to Brooklyn 1-2 times a year
and insure in PA? Used to be the Italians 30 years ago pulling schemes.
And again who raped the home buying?
PS do you live there because the rent is controlled?
BTW, I remember another Brighton Beach, filled with Russian and other Jewish immigrants who came to this country before the 1930s. This was 40 years ago. And I remember their grandchildren making the same complaints about them. They left Brighton as soon as they could and spread all over the place.
Clare, I think Local Broker is a local commercial real estate guy.
I overhead a totally different take on the Bay at Sheepshead Bay Station. Someone was grousing about The Sheepshead Bay Of Pigs. He was very upset about the filthy conditions in and around the station. He even went so far as to pick up and comment upon a piece of underwear he spotted. Is it the Russians who are piggish or some of the other more recent residents of the neighborhood. I’d have to single out Avenue U as being another glaring example of pigs in our space.
Paul: I don’t blame the Russians or the youth for the increased garbage in the area. There are a million factors – starting with the relocation of numerous fast food joints with disposable crap, continuing on to the Dept. of Sanitation, going further along to businesses and residences disposing of their waste incorrectly, and ending(?) with a number of asshole individuals.
You’re right. Garbage is a major problem in the area, and it’s something I’ve been trying to figure out how to tackle with this site. But that’s not what this post is about, so let’s get back on topic.
Local: Thanks, as usual, for filling us in on the real estate details and your view of Sheepshead and its Russian residents. Glad you didn’t decide to put a boot in my face
One thing I’ve noticed – and I’m not sure about this, but it’s my guess – is that all the Russians that have commented have been middle-aged and up. I’d be really interested in what Russians under 24 – and especially under 20 – have to say about this. It wouldn’t surprise me if it’s remarkably different… things are changing really quickly here. I mean… we have a ton of sushi joints and a Pinkber—er… Arbuz—here. That makes us notably more trendy to youngsters than Brighton, but perhaps not enough to be calling Sheepshead Bay the Williamsburg of Brighton Beach (::shudders::)
Hi, a Russian here. Sorry, the americanized Russians who consider themselves cool move to Williamsburg, Greenpoint, Bushwick and all the other usual hipster places. Nothing special about the Sheepshead Bay, definitely not a Williamsburg of Brighton Beach. More like a different flavor of Brighton Beach, somewhat more pleasant and civilized. Shop at the new Cherry Hill, inhale some fresh air, etc., etc. However, if I am bringing a bunch of Americans for the tour of the “Russian” neighborhood, Brighton Beach it is.
Little do these spoiled lil’ kids know one day they’re going to be ” the old, miserable Russians who sit in the sun complaining about the heat.”. I find what that girl said is disrespectful, don’t know if anyone else feels this way. I’m no longer in my teens, I wonder what cool is now.
i am a commercial broker and have sold about $40 million worth of real estate in this area alone and have done deals in every borough in this city. so i have an ok idea of real estate value. as i mentioned i live here because of family otherwise i would have moved a long time ago. this area is going to change tremendously in the next 15 years, when those “babushkas” pass the kids who are 30-50 years old will move on and this isnt going to be a russian community anymore. for now it is what it is and the old guard of sheepshead bay has got to get used to it.
clare, do me a favor dont respond to my comments anymore if you have nothing good to say. if you hate the quality of life and all the development sites in this area, leave. all you do is complain about it.
Local broker when you are saying that the area will be less russian in the next 15 years or so you are assuming that there will be no new russian immigration wave. I think I will disagree with you on that one. The new immigrants have been coming into the area from different republics of former Soviet Union for the last 30 years or so, at times more and attimes less.
Otherwise I do agree with the general concept, when the new immigrants are not sustaining the areas, the areas do lose their ethinicity. The good recent examples are Bay Ridge/Bensonhurst/Little Italy in Manhattan that are certianly a lot less Italian now. A bunch of other neighborhoods can be added to the criteria as well.
all i want to know is where do the hot russian women live?
dont have to be cool but must be hot
Screw you and Bloomberg local.
2 peas in a pod.
Clare: Please refrain from attacking other readers. If you want to argue the pros and cons of development, go for it. But I can’t allow this site to turn into simple “flame war” style insults.
On the topic of development, Sheepshead Bay is in a period of transition – and whether you agree or not, there are people in support of development. In my opinion, it’s better to engage them on a higher level than merely insulting them personally for their viewpoint. And in the case of local broker – he’s a commercial real estate agent whose job it is to attract businesses to the Bay in whatever building he has been contracted to do so. He doesn’t build those buildings, and he certainly doesn’t make the laws that allow them to be built.
I am 30+ Russian immigrant who live in Brooklyn for 9 years last 5 of which I am spending in the middle of Brighton, Sheepshead Bay and Homecrest on the avenue who everyone drives by but no one knows its name
As of now Brighton Beach South off the train is mostly rental and subsidized residential area. Few senior projects are along the shore. So no wonder that neighborhood is occupied by elderly people, however family couples infested by kids are common residents to. North of the train is bunch of dilapidated private houses and bungalows with few of them turned into dormitories for summer workers. Very diverse and sometimes marginal crowd lives there. Brighton businesses are mostly of shopping and eating nature. Subsidized housing programs are keeping “babushkas” and “dedushkas” on the Brighton Beach.
Sheepshead Bay is mostly rental, coop and townhouse neighborhood that is affordable by the somewhat established people. There is not much of the subsidized housing for the low-income residents in this neighborhood. Few senior projects are situated along the bay. As per my observation it occupied by established couples of 40+ years old attracted by choice of entertainment and few fashion outlets available along the Emmonth Ave.
its interesting that we are comparing brighton and sheepshead like they are far apart and totally different its the same zip code right next to each other. as far as the russian community goes if you live everyone goes back and forth. poeple from BB go to bagel boy and cherry hill or paradise and lohmenns. and from SB go to brighton for restaurants and beach walk on boardwalk whatever. BB just looks different because its mostly buildings and has a train on top of it if emmons ave had a train on top of it it would look the same look at 86th street. but the housing prices are more expensive in BB again only talking apartments either rent or buy and BB is a lot smaller than SB.
thanks ned for the defense. i am pro development when done right. i think that the mall thats being talked about on sheepshead bay road is crazy and not for this community absolutely not in that location there are no roads to support that type of traffic and there is no place to build them. its funny that people complain about certain developments after the fact what they dont realize is that is what drives up the prices in the area and why so many were able to sell their homes for absurd amounts of money. the real value of a home as is is not worth anything near what its worth to a developer to tear down and build. now its over, ned do an article about how these prices compare i will help you with the research even though i have never sold a house.
Ya know what, I’m not leaving I will speak when I choose and there are plenty of people who share my sentiments.
I do not walk around with blinders on. I will continue to state my feelings concerning
real-estate, bankers, mortgage brokers and those who feed off their greed.
so anyone in that business is greedy and bad not some random pizza guy that charges 3 bucks for a slice when it cost 50 cents or any coffee shop that charges 2 bucks for a cup when it cost 10-15 cents thats called business. if someone is willing to buy and pay for it who cares no one is forcing anyone. you should move to montana no buildings just grass and mountains no big bad finance guys there.
Except that there are. They just buy up all the farms!
-Trying to be funny….
Well, being totally honest, if it wasn’t for developers none of us would be living here. It’s no secret that I think that the current mode of tearing down an entire neighborhood of houses because they aren’t large enough is a insult to those of us who have lived here for a significant period of time. I’m old enough to remember the last round of overbuilding during the 1960s. Seemed as if they put a 6 story apartment house on every corner they could find, and then some. A number of people who moved in when these were built are still part of our community today.
There’s a web site that has aerial photos of Sheepshead Bay from the 1950s. Poke around their 1954 map that shows parts of Sheepshead Bay as incredibly undeveloped. Go down East 12th Street from Avenue W to Avenue X, then down East 13th going toward Shore Parkway. It’s a world that doesn’t exist here anymore.
http://www.historicaerials.com/Default.aspx
In the 1920s they built block after block of one and two family homes. The very houses that it pains me now to see bulldozed. But I’m sure they too were not welcomed by those whose families had lived here for several generations or more.
There should be a balance between growth and continuity. A recommendation was made a few years ago to the City Council that a historicalness report be written before any house older than 80 years is demolished. Of course, that would make for much work for whatever agency is required to do the legwork. The report would be paid for by the developer. Unfortunately, the proposal never got out of the City Council committee that was considering it.
With the economy still not out of the woods I believe that the insane overbuilding will stop on its own. Unfortunately, much damage has been done already. Even a 1790 Dutch style house on Hubbard’s Lane was demolished and replaced with condo units. Rumor had it that the Ryder Van Cleef house at 32 Village Road North was sold and slated to be demolished. The house dates from around 1840, and still was there last time I checked. Perhaps the deal fell through.
Honestly? Sheepshead Bay is DISGUSTING. It’s dirty and the people are rude beyond anything I have EVER encountered- and I’m from Bay Ridge.
I cannot wait until my lease is up- PIGS live there. Trash all over the street at all times, people drive like maniacs- there is no consideration for anything or anyone.
btw- i don’t care about the ethnicity or who lives in sheepshead bay. it’s a dirty area. period.
you dont have to wait till your lease is up you can leave now and no one will miss you that includes your landlord.
I agree that SB has gotten quite dirty in the past few years. Just look at the streets. Business owners refuse to take responsibility and clean up their properties. Just look at the crap that’s in front of the Sylvan learning center on E.17th and Z. And dog shit is everywhere. This is the result of over building the area. And there are no decent places to eat. I think it’s time for me to pack and leave.
No decent places to eat?
Clemente’s, Jordans, Omiya Sushi, Masakari Sushi, Mitoushi Sushi, Wheelers for Beers and Burgers, Delmar Pizza, Connies Pizza, Trio Pizza, Brennan and Carr, That fancy W place on X and Ocean that serves french food (I think its french, at least thats what the owner tells me). If you want to eat at a chain we’ve got Applebees and Fridays, you want buffet? Seaport Buffet on Emmons is one of the better ones in Brooklyn.
Sheepshead had its share of crappy places to eat, but it has a treasure trove of awesome places too.
I don’t know what yard stick you’re measuring by but you need your head examined if you really think Sheepshead has no decent places to eat.
http://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=&ns=1&rpp=10&find_loc=Sheepshead+Bay%2C+Brooklyn+11235#find_desc=Food&find_loc=11235&places=NY%3ANew_York%3ABrooklyn%3ASheepshead_Bay&rpp=30&bbox=-73.9558410645%2C40.5792157084%2C-73.9299201965%2C40.5988999006&sortby=most_reviewed&cflt=gourmet%2Cfood%2Crestaurants%2Cchinese%2Cjapanese%2Crussian%2Csushi%2Cturkish
There you go. The top 30 places to eat in Sheepshead as rated by Yelp.
I’m 34, here since 1992 (came from the Ukraine – Kiev) and have seen Sheepshead Bay turn more and more “Russian”, with many more “Russians” settling here. Not just off the boat, but also moving here from other neighborhoods.
Lots of my friends who have established themselves here in the US have stayed in the neighborhood instead of moving to Manhattan, S.I. or NJ.
There are plenty of those who moved back (myself included).
It definitely seems like the younger Russians flock to the area, while Brighton Beach caters to more older Russian immigrants.
wow, it’s getting hot in here
i too have lived in Sheepshead Bay for a good few years and can’t help noticing it’s gotten consierably dirtier, regardless of all the new condos 
which seem ridiculously overpriced, considering the condition of the neighborhood.
the longer i live here, the more appealing New Jersey gets… or maybe I’m just not cool anymore 
)
as to Sheepshead Bay versus Brighton Beach, though it’s true about “new” and “old” immigrants, they are both still RUSSIAN russian neighborhoods, not americanized
Sheepshead isn’t the only victim of street trash. So is Brighton.
When I was a kid I keenly remember following my parents to Brighton Beach to the various restaurants on any weeknight of the week. Back then families and groups would hang out and the establishments and outside them till 3 in the morning. I remember going outside and seeing the entire strip alive with life. People were walking laughing, smoking, talking and enjoying the Winter, Summer, Spring or Autumn Air.
That doesn’t happen anymore, ever. By 1 am Brighton is a ghost town, even in summer and trash is everywhere. For both neighborhoods its a combination of many things. Business owners don’t wash down and sweep up every day anymore. People just don’t care. They’ve fallen into apathy.
[...] Overheard: Sheepshead Bay for “Cool” Russians (August 25) – An overheard conversation on the subway sparked a debate between Sheepshead Bites’ readers about the character of the neighborhood, and exactly what kind of Eastern Europeans Sheepshead Bay appeals to. [...]
Pretty cool thinking that still people finding the cool ones.I mean to say the cool Russians.Well the answer just posted by the cool ones.Might its for sure the correct one.
being Russian, it might have been said in a quasi affectionate, teasing, commedic way…kinda the way us southerners talk about our “grannies” or, others talk about the little old men pigeon feeders. Also, had she heard someone non Russian make the same comment, she may have gotten her feathers ruffled and not realize the difference.
Or, it could just be the eternal impatience youth has with age. It’s a two way street and has had traffic on it since Plato
I thought most of the Russians in Sheepshead were actually Ukrainians? Would that make a difference?